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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi

I thought I would share some information on a recent oil analysis I sent to millers oil.

The car has only 10,000 miles on the clock since new, no engine mods or oil cooler. Its not our every day car so it generally gets a good heat cycle when it is used on a weekend and driven 30 mins plus. Other than that it is used for track days occasionally .

The car has only been serviced by Toyota, most recently in Sept. They use the TMG 0w20 I believe (more on that later). I drove the car twice over a 4 week period, then went to Donington where I did 50 laps on a track day and got the oil up to 130c approx at each run.

I decided to see what state the oil was in and if I had any wear, so 1 week after the track day I dropped the oil and sent a sample away for analysis. My simple thought process is that if the oil is thinning out at high temp or breaking down on track this would show in the oil analysis, I explained what I was looking for, the use of the car and temps I was reaching.

Results

Product Rectangle Font Parallel Screenshot


In the email correspondence with Millers they mentioned the low Moly content, as they believed the TMG 0w20 oil should display a value up in the 700ppm region. Has anyone else had TMG oil analysed in the last couple of years to compare?

Part 2: Coming soon
I replaced the oil above with Mobil ESP X2 0w20 oil before the Anglesey track day, did 50 laps and I'm planning to drop this in the next week to try another oil analysis of the Mobil oil to see how it held up and what if any difference to the TMG oil. For reference Mobil ESP X2 is green opaque in colour and not the same as TMG.

Part 3: Coming soon
This relates to the TMG oil and the low Moly content just because I'm curious, I might buy 1 ltr of oil from Toyota and send a fresh sample for checking to see if the retail bottle has high moly. I will let you know the outcome, but if anyone has any thoughts on this please let me know.


When I asked Millers what they think is best, Mobil ESP X2 0w20, TMG 0w20, or Millers new EE 0w20 he gave a casual reply "they are all great oils just get what ever is cheapest". Which to us car enthusiasts seems like a strange comment, but probably indicates that they are all very good oils, and millers are not just after a sale, but they are getting the RRP of 3 samples out of me馃槅.

Anyway a bit of rambling and this info might only be interesting to me but thought I would share.
 

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Hi Emmett,

Am a big fan of analysis driven conversations, so appreciate you spending the time and effort to both get the analysis done and share your results. I will also share my results and share my findings for you and others to learn from.

My first analysis is from Dec 19 (I cant find the Dec 18 one which was shell Helix ultra synthetic but very similar results) , when my car had done 9800 miles and was a daily driver to work and back (25 miles each way so 50 / day). The oil used was Fuchs Titan Syn SN by my Subaru Dealership and the analysis said , change the oil after 15K miles and get another test done.

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Now here Covid stuck and my car started getting used for the local supermarket trip so very short runs and engine not even warming up. The car was also in SORN for most of winters. The oil used this time was Millers CFS NT , so their top of the range race oil. With this change in driving pattern and doing really half of the miles before (4500 miles), the oil turned out not positive with a high level of fuel dilution. This highlights what the manufacturer says, i.e. in severe driving conditions which town driving, stop start driving and short trips are all made up of, change oil twice as frequently. I will highly recommend this to anyone doing this type of driving to change oil every 6 mths.

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On your Moly note, I do not know about Toyota oil but Shell and Fuchs non race oils (but quality fully synth oils) have only a trace of moly, not much at all. If you buy the millers range, they have more moly and their CFS seems to have loads of it. Whether it leads to a real benefit or not is debatable but its an expensive additive.

After about 10 yrs of oil analysis on multiple cars, i have also come to the same conclusion as what the Millers expert told you. I have never seen a bad analysis come out due to oil brand as long as its the right viscosity and of the right type (API SN. ILSAC GF5 for us) suggested by the manufacturer. Any Fully Synthetic quality brand of Engine oil is the same. Rest is all marketing and much of muchness. I say this with solid 10 yrs worth of data across multiple cars and with different oils, Shell, Millers, Mobil 1, Amsoil, Fuchs etc.

So going for a CFS Nanodrive (more expensive) when Millers themselves are recommending EE (in their notes in my analysis above) for our cars tells you the story. If its a pure race car, then the use case is different but for our cars which are primarily road cars and have some track days a year, any quality synthetic will do its job well. For the fully track car, a change every 10 track days is about right, as the rule of thumb is, 1 track day is equal to about 1000 miles of wear on oil.
 

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I took me a while to write this, as I realised I was just echoing a lot of what had already been said 馃槀

...

Results
Here are my results from back in September of 2020. This was before the oil cooler was installed but after the exhaust upgrade and remap.
Like BRZ, I was using Millers CFS 0w-30. Sorry EB, sadly I don't have any results based on the OEM oil.
Rectangle Font Slope Parallel Screenshot

It looks like they missed a few things off my report, like fuel dilution.

Comparison
Using the same oil, it's reassuring to see results similar to yours BRZ. Granted the amount of wear metals are slight higher in my car but I believe yours is much newer/lower mileage? Mine was five and a half year old at the time, with 70k on the clock.
As for your car EB. I know were are talking only a few parts per million but yours looks (rightly so) to be brand new 馃憤

Usage & Servicing
The oil analysed in the report, was in the car between May and September of 2020 and covered just 2,600 miles. The is might seem a bit bonkers but following on from what BRZ was saying... CFS isn't designed to be an oil you use to pop down to the shops. Granted I did use it for that, but it's not feasible for me to change the oil before and after every track day. Plus, I was hoping to be on track a lot more in 2020.

I service my car twice a year, running CFS in warmer months if I plan to be on track, switching back to the OE Toyota oil over the winter, after my last track day of the year. I find this to be as fair compromise as possible.

Future
I'm happy you mentioned Millers new "EE Performance". I think it's only been released this year and I've only just discovered it.
I'm even more happy to see Millers' themselves recommended it for your application, which is similar to mine and I guess a fair number of people, EB included?
A street car first, that is used for track days from time to time.

The info on their website, along with their recommendation to you. Feels very much like an effort to steer street cars away from the CFS range? Which, to be fair, has always been very clearly labelled as a "motorsport engine oil". I've always know CFS it's not 100% perfect for my/our application but it's interesting to see the downsides 'for real' in your results.
I think I'll make the switch to EE Performance all year round. It will be interesting to compare the results in the future!

Next Analysis
This will be in a couple of weeks when I drain the current CFS oil before winter.
I'll report back then :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Great information,

I have kind of steered away from the CFS although thinking it is great oil, as you both say its not a standard oil and can require some adaptation to the normal service intervals. Millers even implied not to use it while in warranty when I spoke to them a couple of years ago. . To me the CFS is a little like Motul high performance brake fluid, what is it called? RBF660? On paper Motul is top notch stuff but it comes with drawbacks and one is possibly higher maintenance. I tend to use Castrol React Performance dot 4 very good quality high temp robust fluid, its not the same as Castrol SRF Or Motul or the high wet boiling points they both have, but it also doesn't require changing every 6 months.

Castrol React Performance Dot 4


Anyway getting back to oil, I've ordered EE performance 0w20 and a couple of millers oil analysis packs for the Mobil ESP X2 and some fresh Toyota oil. I can then see whether my Toyota service oil from a barrel in the workshop during service time is the same as what I would buy over the counter. What do you think? Will it be the same?
 

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Great information,

I have kind of steered away from the CFS although thinking it is great oil, as you both say its not a standard oil and can require some adaptation to the normal service intervals. Millers even implied not to use it while in warranty when I spoke to them a couple of years ago.

Anyway getting back to oil, I've ordered EE performance 0w20 and a couple of millers oil analysis packs for the Mobil EXP2 and some fresh Toyota oil. I can then see whether my Toyota service oil from a barrel in the workshop during service time is the same as what I would buy over the counter. What do you think? Will it be the same?
I buy Millers because i want to support local, not because, they are better or worse and because of the testing labs honesty. They have the whole gamut of oils and other fluids ( incl Brake fluid), so their Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 fluids are equally good.

The former is because it does not have API SN certification which is needed for the oil as per manufacturers recommendation and that is a warranty condition.

With regards to your toyota bottle vs drum , they can't be different. I dont think they will be different. Actually they are made by Exxon Mobil/ Esso to Toyota specs so are a variant of Mobil 1. I would go as far as saying your test results on Mobil and Toyota oils will also be very similar. Good luck and keep this forum posted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Swapped out my Mobil 1 ESP X2 oil to Millers EE Performance, along with new filter and washer.

While I was doing this I thought I would share a pic of the colour of Toyota oil vs Mobil 1 0w20 ESP X2. When I picked up the oil and filter from the service dept I spoke to the service guy about the oil used at service time and what I wanted the 1 ltr for, he said they don't use retail bottles for servicing, only bulk oil from a barrel that he thinks comes from Shell. Anyway its an interesting experiment.


Mobil 1 ESP X2 meets or exceeds
Porsche C20 (small displacement Porsche approval)
DexosD compliant licensed oil
VW 508 00
VW 509 00
API SL
ACEA C5
API SN
API SN PLUS
API SP

The TMG oil is SN and SN plus approved.

Fresh oil for comparison
Automotive lighting Product Fluid Drink Gas


I took a sample of the used Mobil XP2 to send away as the car has done approx 1000 miles and 1 track day, similar to the first sample, and I bought 1 ltr of Toyota oil and will send away a fresh sample to compare to my service car in the original analysis.

Fluid Wood Font Material property Red
 

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There is one other brand that uses Green dye in their premium oils and thats Liqi Moly. The reason they state is the green dye under UV light helps identify oil leaks very easily. I presume its the same reason for Mobil 1 to be that colour too.

Look forward to your results. My guess is you can go a lot longer between oil changes.... and toyota oil is good stuff :)
 

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Very interesting @Mike . If you say it was after Valve Spring Recall and they say high silicon due to Seals and Sealants, it makes total sense, doesn't it?

@EB2429 & @Kaviar : One more thing to add, API SP and ILSAC GF6A are very new specs introduced in May 2020, so if the Mobil 1 has them, then its a superior oil. Notes below:

Introduced in May 2020, designed to provide protection against low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI), timing chain wear protection, improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons and turbochargers, and more stringent sludge and varnish control. API SP with Resource Conserving matches ILSAC GF-6A by combining API SP performance with improved fuel economy, emission control system protection and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
@ mike/BRZ Do you think the silicon content will reduce over a period of oil changes?

ILSAC GF6-6A not sure the mobil is, but I believe the Millers EE is
 

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@ mike/BRZ Do you think the silicon content will reduce over a period of oil changes?

ILSAC GF6-6A not sure the mobil is, but I believe the Millers EE is
I am fairly sure silicon levels will. By the way silicon is also Sand, and can also come from poor air filtration...If you have an aftermarket panel filter like i did and if you read my report above, you will see what i mean.

Then millers is superior ;) has the latest safety / additive package. LSPI is not common in our engines but definitely worth having the additives to minimize helps, especially for those who are on FI mods.
 

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Yep, I expected some silicone in there, should drop even lower as time goes on, but there isn't enough to worry about it. I only did it for piece of mind, and the fact I'm not exactly kind to my car so wanted to see what state the oil was in after 18 months.
 

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Yep, I expected some silicone in there, should drop even lower as time goes on, but there isn't enough to worry about it. I only did it for piece of mind, and the fact I'm not exactly kind to my car so wanted to see what state the oil was in after 18 months.
you are kind of one of a kind. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
The question from Millers on my original sample was, did my car have TMG oil? (It had been serviced 1 month prior to analysis by a toyota Dealer so the answer was yes). The query stems from the low Moly content in my first sample as Millers expected it to have approx 600 - 800 ppm.

The fresh sample sent to millers from a sealed bottle below, was purchased from toyota dealer and has a standard level of Moly according to Millers. So what did toyota use? To be fair I guess my oil was within spec (apart from moly) and up to the task after the trackday according to Millers.



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Interesting. Its quite high in moly, this one. I haven't seen high moly in any regular synth oils other than Race oil type formulations. I wonder what the GR oil Moly content will be now, if this one is so high.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
As has been reported in the past the TMG 0w20 (if that's what you get at service fill ;)) seems pretty good, which is probably why the Millers guy said "just use which ever one is cheapest".

Still waiting for the Mobil test but I fear it went missing in the post as I should have had the result by now.

I'm kind of getting to a uneducated conclusion that I should no longer worry about oil pressure on track with 0w20 and just look at condition of engine from oil tests. Theory being that it would show in the oil if 0w20 failed to prevent metal to metal, and wear rates would increase significantly. If I look at the preset value the internet says I need to hit for 'good' oil pressure, I would understandably want to go for thicker oil, but the analysis doesn't appear in my case to suggest I need thicker oil on track. Would that be a fair conclusion?
 

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As has been reported in the past the TMG 0w20 (if that's what you get at service fill ;)) seems pretty good, which is probably why the Millers guy said "just use which ever one is cheapest".

Still waiting for the Mobil test but I fear it went missing in the post as I should have had the result by now.

I'm kind of getting to a uneducated conclusion that I should no longer worry about oil pressure on track with 0w20 and just look at condition of engine from oil tests. Theory being that it would show in the oil if 0w20 failed to prevent metal to metal, and wear rates would increase significantly. If I look at the preset value the internet says I need to hit for 'good' oil pressure, I would understandably want to go for thicker oil, but the analysis doesn't appear in my case to suggest I need thicker oil on track. Would that be a fair conclusion?
In the oil forums people now say 0W20 is the new 5W30. So you are right that its not worth worrying. Ours is an NA car while the GR Yaris which is track ready and turbocharged also still uses 0W20 which should give you some reassurance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
My analysis came back today for the Mobil ESP X2 oil, I thought it was lost.

I did laugh when the opening comments from the test read "Please find the attached report, you are rapidly becoming our best customer!"

High boron, low Moly seems to be the way Mobil ESP X2 works, TBN and wear all good, viscosity from Mobil is 7.8 and still reading 7.7 @100c so looks good. Surprised by the fuel content as the car had been driven a couple of days after fill, then 300 miles to Anglesey track (track miles 100) then 300 miles home with little in between, no real stop start short journey's. Quick google seems to say high Boron might imply cleaning or anti oxidisation from Mobil? Either way I would like more Moly so will stick with the 0w20 EE for the moment as its designed for pretty much what I do, and will drop and report next year.



Font Rectangle Parallel Screenshot Number
 

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So Debbie remembers you :) which is good and you get personalised service comparing the TMG oil with Mobil 1 written in notes. The fuel dilution one is really odd. I have been researching a lot on that and hoped/expected that fuel in oil does vapourize on long drives but your Anglesey drive and back does not seem to reflect that. Mine was at 4.5% previously but that was during lockdown and really short drives. I only did 1.5-2K miles.. May be the safest bet for most is to change oils every 6 mths.

Thank you for sharing, as always. Very insightful. May be i change my car's oil now and report back...
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Yeah would be good to see what you have in your report, I was really surprised to have any fuel dilution in oil only 2-3 weeks old. I guess I might have started the car a couple of times and moved it in and out of the garage, but a 300 mil long run I would have thought would keep the oil hot and vapour off the fuel, let alone the track day!
 
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