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Looking for modest performers here https://alltyretests.com/uniroyal-ra...3-test-review/
I was surprised Avons don't perform all that well on wet and dry handling. At least according to this test.
I was surprised Avons don't perform all that well on wet and dry handling. At least according to this test.
Moves With Rowds
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Expert
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovesWithClouds
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Looking for modest performers here https://alltyretests.com/uniroyal-ra...3-test-review/
I was surprised Avons don't perform all that well on wet and dry handling. At least according to this test.
I was surprised Avons don't perform all that well on wet and dry handling. At least according to this test.
But I always have to wonder, how can they test such a wide range of tyres under identical conditions in the dry? Temperatures at least vary greatly over the course of one day, let alone more. That might explain how Contis often do very well in these German tests, but ah, I see now that test winner Uniroyal is now owned by Conti...
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,846
Dry handling is not that important. Progressiveness and low grip in the wet is, but also forward kinetic grip. HP has low grip but weak progressiveness. The 4 is reasonable on grip and good on progressiveness in the wet but kinetic friction is too high. I suspect wet braking is a measure for that.
Avon scores in the range of Nokian Line which I know and like.
Every page uses a different reference and the measurements are very limited so it is very hard to compare using this site but the Kumho Ecsta HS51 is listed on both
https://alltyretests.com/michelin-primacy-4/ and https://alltyretests.com/michelin-primacy-3/ which I know well . The 3 brakes only a little better than Kumho Ecsta while the 4 brakes a lot better. That fits with my experience.
Avon scores in the range of Nokian Line which I know and like.
Every page uses a different reference and the measurements are very limited so it is very hard to compare using this site but the Kumho Ecsta HS51 is listed on both
https://alltyretests.com/michelin-primacy-4/ and https://alltyretests.com/michelin-primacy-3/ which I know well . The 3 brakes only a little better than Kumho Ecsta while the 4 brakes a lot better. That fits with my experience.
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Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 3
I've just come across this thread and it seems I'm after almost the same thing: progressive slip in the wet and dry with reasonably low speeds. The most fun I've had has been on winter tires (xice3, 205/55/16, 94H) in the snow, wet, and dry. I almost want a tire that behaves more or less like these but all year round...
I've been on the lookout for some nokian lines and found a set of 195/55/16 (84V). I'm a bit naive about all the variables here, but wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a (general) effect of tire size and sidewall height on progressiveness.
For example, all things equal, is a 55 aspect tire more progressive? I've read that higher sidewall will also tend to not maintain slides as easily, which I can see being linked to progressiveness, but would this potentially be overboard with a 84 load index?
All things equal, would a 195 width tire have lower limits but similar progressiveness to a 205 tire?
Appreciate any advice and I'm happy to report back after I've tested out my purchase!
I've been on the lookout for some nokian lines and found a set of 195/55/16 (84V). I'm a bit naive about all the variables here, but wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a (general) effect of tire size and sidewall height on progressiveness.
For example, all things equal, is a 55 aspect tire more progressive? I've read that higher sidewall will also tend to not maintain slides as easily, which I can see being linked to progressiveness, but would this potentially be overboard with a 84 load index?
All things equal, would a 195 width tire have lower limits but similar progressiveness to a 205 tire?
Appreciate any advice and I'm happy to report back after I've tested out my purchase!
Expert
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,846
My Nokian winter tyres were great for 'forceful driving' but they won't last a winter that way.
Mostly more sidewall means the steering is also less direct and it is a suspension upgrade on bad roads.
A tyre with more sidewall can flex more which means you have to be more brutal to unstick it and to keep it unstuck. That is not the same as progressiveness. A lower load factor probably adds to that.
Maybe narrower tyres are more progressive but that would be a minor factor. Type of tyre is more important. Nokian Line was indeed progressive.
Mostly more sidewall means the steering is also less direct and it is a suspension upgrade on bad roads.
A tyre with more sidewall can flex more which means you have to be more brutal to unstick it and to keep it unstuck. That is not the same as progressiveness. A lower load factor probably adds to that.
Maybe narrower tyres are more progressive but that would be a minor factor. Type of tyre is more important. Nokian Line was indeed progressive.
Moves With Rowds
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Join Date: Jan 2021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovesWithClouds
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My Nokian winter tyres were great for 'forceful driving' but they won't last a winter that way.
Mostly more sidewall means the steering is also less direct and it is a suspension upgrade on bad roads.
A tyre with more sidewall can flex more which means you have to be more brutal to unstick it and to keep it unstuck. That is not the same as progressiveness. A lower load factor probably adds to that.
Maybe narrower tyres are more progressive but that would be a minor factor. Type of tyre is more important. Nokian Line was indeed progressive.
Mostly more sidewall means the steering is also less direct and it is a suspension upgrade on bad roads.
A tyre with more sidewall can flex more which means you have to be more brutal to unstick it and to keep it unstuck. That is not the same as progressiveness. A lower load factor probably adds to that.
Maybe narrower tyres are more progressive but that would be a minor factor. Type of tyre is more important. Nokian Line was indeed progressive.
Brilliant! Thanks so much for the guidance--incredibly helpful. I get your point that sidewall =/= progressiveness, but it sounds like it would play into how easily/quickly a slide recovers.
In case it is remotely helpful for you as well, I got advice from another forum about Achilles 868 (which I cannot get where I live).
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,846
Yes recovery from a slide is the 'keeping it unstuck' bit. More meat recovers easier.
I notice that Achilles is an all season. i don't know the brand but that type of tyre could indeed be a smart move in general. I've never tried it.
With cheaper brands my concern is that it is easier to lose the car because of two weaknesses. Progressiveness means you get a warning near edge of grip. Kinetic grip is about how hard you slide once you get unstuck. Primacy HP was weak on both fronts: you didn't know where the edge of grip is on a cold rainy day and once it got sliding the resistance was pretty low so you didn't know if you'd be able to recover it(in time). If you slide deliberately that is less of a problem but when you're caught by surprise on a slippery spot it does matter. Primacy 4 is the opposite: it rarely catches you by surprise and it usually stops the slide by itself. It may trample a lot while at it but that is a nuisance, not a safety issue.
[edit] ah for clarity: all seasons suffer less from these two weaknesses, regardless of brand. Because they are more winter tyreish.
I notice that Achilles is an all season. i don't know the brand but that type of tyre could indeed be a smart move in general. I've never tried it.
With cheaper brands my concern is that it is easier to lose the car because of two weaknesses. Progressiveness means you get a warning near edge of grip. Kinetic grip is about how hard you slide once you get unstuck. Primacy HP was weak on both fronts: you didn't know where the edge of grip is on a cold rainy day and once it got sliding the resistance was pretty low so you didn't know if you'd be able to recover it(in time). If you slide deliberately that is less of a problem but when you're caught by surprise on a slippery spot it does matter. Primacy 4 is the opposite: it rarely catches you by surprise and it usually stops the slide by itself. It may trample a lot while at it but that is a nuisance, not a safety issue.
[edit] ah for clarity: all seasons suffer less from these two weaknesses, regardless of brand. Because they are more winter tyreish.
Moves With Rowds
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 3
I wonder about the primacy 4: do you reckon going to a narrower size or thinner sidewall would reduce the tendency for the slide to stop by itself? Or perhaps the characteristics would change in other unintended ways
I've seen the suggestion to go to cheap and/or hard all seasons, but, like you, I worry it's a bit of a crapshoot and the risk would be low limits, but no feedback and no progressiveness. I wonder if a good path would be good all seasons but in a relatively narrow size with a thinner sidewall (45-50).
By the way, re-reading the thread here, I thought it might be useful for you that the Yokohama e70 dBs are apparently just as bad as the primacy in the wet (perhaps you've seen this: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54762).
I've seen the suggestion to go to cheap and/or hard all seasons, but, like you, I worry it's a bit of a crapshoot and the risk would be low limits, but no feedback and no progressiveness. I wonder if a good path would be good all seasons but in a relatively narrow size with a thinner sidewall (45-50).
By the way, re-reading the thread here, I thought it might be useful for you that the Yokohama e70 dBs are apparently just as bad as the primacy in the wet (perhaps you've seen this: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54762).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovesWithClouds
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Yes recovery from a slide is the 'keeping it unstuck' bit. More meat recovers easier.
I notice that Achilles is an all season. i don't know the brand but that type of tyre could indeed be a smart move in general. I've never tried it.
With cheaper brands my concern is that it is easier to lose the car because of two weaknesses. Progressiveness means you get a warning near edge of grip. Kinetic grip is about how hard you slide once you get unstuck. Primacy HP was weak on both fronts: you didn't know where the edge of grip is on a cold rainy day and once it got sliding the resistance was pretty low so you didn't know if you'd be able to recover it(in time). If you slide deliberately that is less of a problem but when you're caught by surprise on a slippery spot it does matter. Primacy 4 is the opposite: it rarely catches you by surprise and it usually stops the slide by itself. It may trample a lot while at it but that is a nuisance, not a safety issue.
[edit] ah for clarity: all seasons suffer less from these two weaknesses, regardless of brand. Because they are more winter tyreish.
I notice that Achilles is an all season. i don't know the brand but that type of tyre could indeed be a smart move in general. I've never tried it.
With cheaper brands my concern is that it is easier to lose the car because of two weaknesses. Progressiveness means you get a warning near edge of grip. Kinetic grip is about how hard you slide once you get unstuck. Primacy HP was weak on both fronts: you didn't know where the edge of grip is on a cold rainy day and once it got sliding the resistance was pretty low so you didn't know if you'd be able to recover it(in time). If you slide deliberately that is less of a problem but when you're caught by surprise on a slippery spot it does matter. Primacy 4 is the opposite: it rarely catches you by surprise and it usually stops the slide by itself. It may trample a lot while at it but that is a nuisance, not a safety issue.
[edit] ah for clarity: all seasons suffer less from these two weaknesses, regardless of brand. Because they are more winter tyreish.
Expert
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,846
I see no mention of the Yoko e70 in that thread you point to. I don't know what to think of it yet.
Summarizing the main lines for me are: Tyre width matters for aquaplaning and tyre temperature on track. I don't bother with it. Sidewall matters for stability. Good for back roads, a bit for driftability. With a stiffer tyre you can prolong the drift for longer. Compound and profile matter for behaviour near and beyond grip limit.
Other effects are lower order. If you want a progressive tyre , it's tyre brand and type which matter. It's possible the budget all-seasons are good fun, but that is speculation on my part. It's budget summer tyres I worry about, not all-seasons.
So for primacy 4: pick that if you want to go for safety and cost over all. More sidewall means even more safety. For me that was a bit much.
Summarizing the main lines for me are: Tyre width matters for aquaplaning and tyre temperature on track. I don't bother with it. Sidewall matters for stability. Good for back roads, a bit for driftability. With a stiffer tyre you can prolong the drift for longer. Compound and profile matter for behaviour near and beyond grip limit.
Other effects are lower order. If you want a progressive tyre , it's tyre brand and type which matter. It's possible the budget all-seasons are good fun, but that is speculation on my part. It's budget summer tyres I worry about, not all-seasons.
So for primacy 4: pick that if you want to go for safety and cost over all. More sidewall means even more safety. For me that was a bit much.
Moves With Rowds
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